The 7 Noble Natural Rights - Life - Liberty - The Pursuit of Happiness - Food - Clothing - Shelter - Medical Care (c) Kerry Thornley, Zenarchy, 199125 Musley Ln, Ware, Hertfordshire SG12 7
I learned in the summer of 2010 that it was just 2009 that the UN recognized that water was a human right. But, in my opinion even if they say something is. I still believe that they currently do not have enough power to enforce these issues.
Well. I think defining food and water as a human right in terms of quantity of calories and liters of water per day. However, pollution is an entirely different thing. Especially when you can consider anything synthetic that does not biodegrade as a pollutant.
What about the means of acquiring and possessing property. That one always seems to get left out although without a home of your own where do all the other rights fit. shelter by the nature of the term seems temporary and not owned. The first and second article of the Virginia Declaration of Rights circa June 12, 1776 and written by George Mason, was: That all men are by nature equally free and independent, and have certain inherent rights, of which, when they enter into a state of society, they cannot, by any compact, deprive or divest their posterity; namely, the enjoyment of life and liberty, with the means of acquiring and possessing property, and pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety.
Well clearly "Property is theft" in that one person declaring ownership of something deprives the rest of society from use of that thing. At the same time, "Property is liberty", because if one runs the risk of being robbed of the fruits of one’s actions, one is a slave. Lots and lots of analysis around this since Proudhoun proposed these views.
The problem I would have in including the right to own property in a list of Noble Truths or Rights is that it justifies a Right Wing Capitalist viewpoint and it's possible to imagine internally consistent (small) societies where it's unnecessary. The other problem with making Property a Right is that it leads down a path of having to defend that right, from locks to a police force to prisons. And such a system breeds criminals. So the inevitable corollary of making property a right is state social control mechanisms. One gets trapped into an escalating set of rights such as the right to elect leaders in free elections.
In some sense all this list is doing is enumerating what is in the bottom rung of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Air, Food, Water, Clothing and Shelter are the most basic human needs. I don't think it's hard to argue that medical care is at a similar level. When we introduce safety in the form of property and more esoteric needs such as the pursuit of happiness, we're saying that the higher levels of the pyramid are not just desirable but fundamental rights.
LOL I like it Lynne. Everything said about the right to property applies to all rights I.e. all rights if not defended can be taken away/ frustrated by naughty people. In fact technically there is no such thing as a right... Rights are the intangible benefits of Duty and responsibility. If more people fulfilled their common law duties and acted responsibly both morally and ethically (another big discussion there but hey ho) far fewer rights would have to be documented and 'defended'.
This is why I have a hard time considering Property to be a fundamental, noble or natural right.
Michael-Don Smith - 2011-11-21 05:51:37+0000 - Updated: 2011-11-21 05:53:11+0000
I am starting to appreciate, a long way from sharing it yet, your perspective Julian. What about Property2 ? i.e. that which will be voluntarily honored in a voluntary (anarchist) society, is the foundation of the liberty in that society, sounds pretty noble. And I can now recognise the 7 rights on the list as forms of Property1. I'm off to confuse myself more by reading up on Proudhon...
It's all very well quoting natural rights. But you quickly have to add a couple more. The right to compete for those rights with 7 billion other people. (Right Wing Libertarianism). The right to form into extended family groups and tribes to protect those rights. (Left Wing Cooperation). And the notion of Property really brings this problem to the fore. The vast majority of what we now call property really is theft because it was stolen from the commons by force and it's ownership is maintained by force and the threat of force.
I learned in the summer of 2010 that it was just 2009 that the UN recognized that water was a human right. But, in my opinion even if they say something is. I still believe that they currently do not have enough power to enforce these issues.
However, pollution is an entirely different thing. Especially when you can consider anything synthetic that does not biodegrade as a pollutant.
The first and second article of the Virginia Declaration of Rights circa June 12, 1776 and written by George Mason, was:
That all men are by nature equally free and independent, and have certain inherent rights, of which, when they enter into a state of society, they cannot, by any compact, deprive or divest their posterity; namely, the enjoyment of life and liberty, with the means of acquiring and possessing property, and pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety.
The problem I would have in including the right to own property in a list of Noble Truths or Rights is that it justifies a Right Wing Capitalist viewpoint and it's possible to imagine internally consistent (small) societies where it's unnecessary. The other problem with making Property a Right is that it leads down a path of having to defend that right, from locks to a police force to prisons. And such a system breeds criminals. So the inevitable corollary of making property a right is state social control mechanisms. One gets trapped into an escalating set of rights such as the right to elect leaders in free elections.
In some sense all this list is doing is enumerating what is in the bottom rung of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Air, Food, Water, Clothing and Shelter are the most basic human needs. I don't think it's hard to argue that medical care is at a similar level. When we introduce safety in the form of property and more esoteric needs such as the pursuit of happiness, we're saying that the higher levels of the pyramid are not just desirable but fundamental rights.
Everything said about the right to property applies to all rights I.e. all rights if not defended can be taken away/ frustrated by naughty people. In fact technically there is no such thing as a right...
Rights are the intangible benefits of Duty and responsibility. If more people fulfilled their common law duties and acted responsibly both morally and ethically (another big discussion there but hey ho) far fewer rights would have to be documented and 'defended'.
+Julian Bond I can feel the wind in my socks already.
+Julian Bond - You should try it some time. (Especially odd socks). :)
http://anarchyisordergovernmentiscivilwar.blogspot.com/2011/02/kevin-carson-quoting-ra-wilson-on.html
This is why I have a hard time considering Property to be a fundamental, noble or natural right.